User talk:Sbiis Saibian

Welcome
Hi, welcome to ! Thanks for your edit to the User:Sbiis Saibian page.

Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- FB100Z (Talk) 05:14, January 12, 2013

I've finally decided to join the googology wiki. I see that there is an aweful lot of inactive members. Since this is basically the only social hub for large numbers, I figured I might as well join. -- Sbiis Saibian

Oh my! It's E100# himself! I want more clouds! 12:27, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Cloudy176. I think this site was a great idea. It's a great place for googologist's to collaborate. It's also a great way to establish what's cannon, and catalog everything. It's difficult to keep track of all the various systems around and how they relate. I can't keep up with all the salad numbers people come up with on a daily basis, but even the more professional stuff is difficult to keep straight. Sbiis Saibian (talk) 15:34, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Last digits of Mega
Hi, Sbiis Saibian.

I saw your article about Mega on your site and developed a better method than you used:

Firstly, consider \(256[3]_1\). It is \(256^{256} = 2^{2048} = ...30656\) Then \(256[3]_2 = (2^{2048})^{(2^{2048})} = 2^{2048 \times 2^{2048}} = 2^{2048 \times ...30656} = 2^{...83488}\)

Then we need to compute last digits of \(2^{83488}\). For this I suggest to drop \(2^{83488}\) into factors of "powers of powers" of 2: \(2^{83488} = 2^{65536} \times 2^{16384} \times 2^{1024} \times 2^{512} \times 2^{32} \). Find last digits of \(2^{2^n}\) by the following way:

Let stage 1 = 4 stage 2 = 16 stage 3 = 256

stage 4 = 65536

stage 5 = ...67296

stage 6 = ...51616

In general, we can obtain the last digits of "stage x" if we take last digits of "stage x-1" and square it.

Then \(2^{2^n}\) = stage n.

Therefore, we can get last digits of each factor of \(2^{83488}\) fairly easy, and hence, of \(2^{83488}\) (if we multiply them). Specifically, using this, I found that \(256[3]_2 = ...65056\)

Now look at \(256[3]_3 = (2^{...83488})^{(2^{...83488})} = (2^{...83488})^{...65056} = 2^{...83488 \times ...65056} = 2^{...33568}\). You can see the pattern. I showed it only at 5 digits, but as number of digits grows, number of calculations don't grows exponentially, and, if you still interested to find more digits of Mega, you can write the program based on my algorithm.

Ikosarakt1 (talk) 11:22, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Ikosarakt1

I noticed your comment on this method on the Mega article talk page. It is an intriguing alternative, and I did actually attempt using it once on paper to obtain ...656 as the last 3 digits of Mega. However I'm not entirely sure this gets completely around the issues I encountered when trying to compute the last 14 digits of Mega. Since this method depends on squares, a table of squares needs to be constructed, and one needs to know how long it takes to return to the starting value. Unless this is known in advance you would actually need to carry out to Stage n, and that could well be impossible if n>E20. While the method works, it would still rely on the problem of memory vs. computation that I encountered. You can reduce the amount of computation by loading up the memory, but that can quickly get used up when we get to around 10-14 digits of accuracy, because of the very long cycle times. Even with my 3GB ram laptop, I wasn't able to get past 12 digits without overloading the memory. One can go the other extreme and compute everything, but every digit seems to increase the computation time about 5 fold, so that within just a few digits you go from minutes, to hours, to days, to weeks, to months of computation. At that point it becomes impractical for me to run the program that long. I would have to break it up into sessions, and the results would be difficult to verify.

None the less, I like your method, I might well try to implement it and see what benefits it offers. It was my intention to get more than 14 digits. I wanted to at least reach 16 digits which was the maximum I could achieve with my programs current configuration. I was originally going to run a program to get the 15th digit, but the way it was set up it was going to take me about a month to compute, broken up into nightly run sessions. I actually ran it for a night or two, but I stopped because I had thought of a better way that would reduce the run time considerably to perhaps a few days. I never got around to implementing it though.

When I get a chance to revisit the topic I'll see if I can get more digits. There might be a method to reduce the exponential run time, but even so it would still be problematic to reach 100 digits because of the limited data-types I have to work with. The largest integer I can use is a 64-bit integer which is still way too small (It would be roughly E19 I think). To get around that limitation I would have to write my own routine, probably in something like C#. I'm sure it can be done but I need to learn more programming first.

Keep Counting

Sincerely,

Sbiis Saibian (talk) 15:23, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Now I created program which finds d digits of Mega. I found that the best way to operate very long numbers as strings. So I created functions: addition, multiplication with taking last d digits, compute last d digits of \(2^{2^n}\), compute last d digits of \(2^n\). If can also post full code if it necessary.

By this program, I reach 20 digits as well: Mega = ...49731993539660742656. Amazingly, It takes only about 40 minutes to calculate. These 20 digits is not a limit for this program, and I recently run it for obtain 30 digits. When I compute it, I'll tell you.

Ikosarakt1 (talk) 13:26, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

30 digits are reached: Mega = ...910112922449731993539660742656. Ikosarakt1 (talk) 15:55, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

The last 500 digits of Mega are:

6146012204572531578518642573646126803479402168065879078658624752476487\

2803902837976103376819650464339061415489976640723044576837710810075626\

3982195355801774063924007257742013488430294905857763290919346930985668\

8868217817416338344379863716514120701492959969787943943004677723133132\

5642730394610854006632923911301838502897561606601450696228009791206968\

1514011641515692019692265965864251890278286738700271908166330741936373\

8852401235410918111746805967171505714587704474989491011292244973199353\

9660742656

Took about 10 seconds on Mathematica. You guys are making things much harder than they need to be. Just use modular exponentiation.Deedlit11 (talk) 14:54, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Deedlit, I used modular exponentiation, and computed 255 digits before you (see Talk:Mega), but... my string type is restricted to maximal length 255. Btw, thanks, you verified the trueness of that. Ikosarakt1 (talk) 15:01, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I see. No biggee. Anyhow, since computing digits of the Mega is so easy, I would say the true challenge is finding more last digits of the Moser. We've found 4, and more could be found with a computer program to analyze all the patterns. Sbiis, are you up for the challenge? Deedlit11 (talk) 15:13, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

When I was working on the 14 digits of Mega, I found that my methods were very ad hoc. This is part of the reason I left off. I wanted to find more general methods and I wanted to understand what was going on with the "cycles" I was discovering. At some point I'm going to have to get back to the issue, and see how to get more digits of ''mega. How is it that you ''over came the cycle problem Ikosarakt1? As I understood it, without cycles, the calculation would become prohibitively long. At some point I will probably try and see how to get terminating digits for Moser, especially when it's time to write my own article on the number (I have one planned). Is it any more difficult to get digits for Moser than it is for mega?

Sbiis Saibian (talk) 15:24, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Cycles aren't a problem - just evaluate the power using modular exponentiation. Perhaps you're thinking that a^b requires b-1 multiplications to evaluate - if that were the case, then computing the last 500 digits would take about 10^500 multiplications! So that certainly would be prohibitive. But you can do it much quicker by using a^(2b+1) = a^(2b) * a for odd exponents, and a^(2b) = a^b * a^b for even exponents. That reduces the number of multiplications to between log_2 b and 2 log_2 b, a much more palatable number. So modular exponentiation is quick, and since you just need to do it 256 times, it's faster than computing the last d digits of Graham's number for large d. One could do a million digits with an optimized program, I would think.

The Moser is a much different kettle of fish. The are umpteen exponentiations, so we can just crank it out like the Mega, and it doesn't stabilize like Graham's Number. So I suspect it could be a difficult intellectual challenge. (I suspect that in any case we're not going to get more than about 10 digits or so.) Deedlit11 (talk) 15:36, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

@Sbiis I actually improved my algorithm, using. Suppose we want to calculate d digits of \(2^{1000}\). Turn 1000 into binary form: 1111101000, initialize base=2 and result=1. Follow these rules until exponent becomes empty:


 * If the last symbol is 1, then multiply base by result and take d digits.
 * Square the base, take last d digits and remove last symbol in the exponent.

Below is the table that illustrates how to calculate last 8 digits of \(2^{1000}\).

That is, \(2^{1000}\) has last digits 68069376. You can verify it on that calculator. By the way, this calc is much more powerful than one which you commonly use. I recommend it. Ikosarakt1 (talk) 16:02, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

First digits of Mega
It seems creepy to think that leading digits of Mega (and other tetrational-class numbers) is unobtainable. Has anyone ideas to calculate them? Ikosarakt1 (talk) 17:22, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Scientific notation: \(a^b = 10^{b \log_{10} a} = 10^{\text{frac}(b \log_{10} a) + \lfloor b \log_{10} a \rfloor} = 10^{\text{frac}(b \log_{10} a)} \times 10^{\lfloor b \log_{10} a \rfloor}\). The leading digit of \(a^b\) would be \(\lfloor 10^{\text{frac}(b \log_{10} a)} \rfloor\) if my calculations are correct.
 * I fear, however, that this will break down once we get to tetration. FB100Z &bull; talk &bull; contribs 18:19, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * The leading digits of \(^ba\) are therefore \(10^{\text{frac}(^{b - 1}a \log_{10} a)}\). The problem breaks down to finding \(^{b - 1}a \log_{10} a \pmod{1}\). Since \(\log_{10} a\) is irrational (otherwise the leading digit would be trivial to compute) and \(^{b - 1}a\) is gigantic, I fail to see any easy way out. FB100Z &bull; talk &bull; contribs 19:07, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Thus, we need to calculate some arbitrary digits of irrational number. I know that exists, but works only with binary and hexadecimal digits, and has linear time complexity. We need to have methods with constant time complexity, and works with decimals. I hope that such algorithm is possible, but so far is unknown. Ikosarakt1 (talk) 21:23, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, we need to compute the fractional part of the product of a power tower and an irrational number.
 * I just noticed that \(^{b - 1}a \log a = {}^{b - 1}a \cdot a^{(\log \log a)/(\log a)} = a^{(\log \log a)/(\log a) + {}^{b - 2}a}\) and we might be able to compute that modulo 1, but I'm not very optimistic about it. FB100Z &bull; talk &bull; contribs 22:30, February 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * You guys are echoing my thoughts on the subject.  Computing arbitrary digits of an irrational number in constant time is impossible - if you solve a problem in constant time, there can only be finitely many computations over all inputs, and you will get a repeating sequence of digits, i.e. a rational number rather than an irrational number.  If the answer depends on the full value of the input, even reading in the input takes time O(log n).
 * Let's take a relatively small number like 2^^7.  As FB100Z has observed, computing the first digits of 2^^7 is equivalent to computing the fractional part of 2^^6 (log 2), which is equivalent to computing the binary digits of log 2 starting from the 2^^5 + 1st place.  This is completely unfeasible unless we have an algorithm that computes the nth binary digit of log 2 in time O(log n).  Mathematicians have been studying constants and how to compute them for centuries, and we have never found an algorithm like that.  The BBP algorithm was startling and remarkable, but as Ikosarakt1 noted, it's still a linear time algorithm.  Finding a logarithmic time algorithm for computing a constant would be a completely new level of startling, and I don't think it will happen, so I don't think we will ever compute the first digits of 2^^7.  And even if an O(log n) algorithm for computing log 2 were found, you would need an O(log log n) algorithm for 2^^8, an O(log log log n) algorithm for 2^^9 and so on.  You don't even have time to read the input!
 * Of course, there could be some crazy reason why log b is easier to compute at the b^^nth place, but I don't believe it.  Deedlit11 (talk) 22:47, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * *sob*
 * On the bright side, at least we know the leading digit of googolplex. FB100Z &bull; talk &bull; contribs 05:20, March 1, 2013 (UTC)

Nonetheless, maybe it is possible to discover an algorithm that works with O(log*n) (iterated logarithm of n) time, if constant time is so hard. It would solve this problem. Ikosarakt1 (talk) 10:03, March 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * But even then O(log n) is insufficient for really big power towers. FB100Z &bull; talk &bull; contribs 17:08, March 1, 2013 (UTC)

I mean log*n, not log(n). log*n is the of n, which is equal to number of applications of common logarithm that need to apply to n to obtain value less of equal than 1.

For example:

log*2=1, since log(2)<1.

log*4=1, since log(4)<1.

log*16=2, since log(log(16))<1.

log*65536=2, since log2(65536)<1.

log*265536=3, since log3(265536)<1.

Ikosarakt1 (talk) 17:15, March 1, 2013 (UTC)

Paper
A while ago I happened across a philosophical/metamathematical paper that may be of interest to you (and other GWikians): Warning Signs of a Possible Collapse of Contemporary Mathematics. It's certainly relevant to googology, and in particular our discussion on Talk:Xi function. FB100Z &bull; talk &bull; contribs 00:06, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

I find his lack of faith in the hyper-operators ... disturbing. Seriously though I gave it a preliminary read through and felt that some of the things said were similar to my own concerns with the infinite, but I only skimmed his closing argument. I'll have to give this a more thorough readthrough later Sbiis Saibian (talk) 20:15, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

HELP ME!!!
HELP!!! I was exploring your web page, and I fell into an infinite loop! I am stuck on the page, so please come and rescue me! &mdash; I want more clouds! 09:15, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Delete "/infinite_numbers_infinitely" and you back to the normal list. Where the problem? Ikosarakt1 (talk) 09:24, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

lol, looks like you guys found my "secret page". That was just a joke to make a point: I like the open-ended philosophy over the Cantorian completion philosophy. As a kid I was actually of the latter philosophy, comfortable with the idea of treating "infinity" as a number, and even going so far as to imagine an "end" even to infinite numbers (I knew nothing of Cantorian transfinites, but I had very similiar ideas. At the time I thought my ideas about infinite infinities would probably be frowned upon by my teachers so I mostly kept them to myself). The problem with that idea, even as I understood it as a kid, was that if even infinite numbers could be represented by finite lengths (given the appropriate "scale"), and one could always zoom out "more" then how could there be a "last number" of any kind (finite or infinite). If any segment represented "zero" to the "Last infinity", then you could just imagine zooming out just a little more and discovering a larger infinity.

As an adult thinking of these ideas critically, rather than platonically and assuming they have meaning outside my head, I've come to the opposite conclusion. That the whole idea of a "last number" is antithetical to the idea of "infinity". It's just an example of a mathematician being "double minded" and wanting both "freedom" and "completeness" at the same time. You can't have both. Given the choice, I've chosen "freedom". I find this turns googology from an oppressive subject (I'm NEVER going to reach infinity, it's hopeless so why even bother), to an opportunity to explore without fear of bumping into any limitations (There is always more to discover... curiousity is the only driving force necessary, without some predetermined goal).

As to which view is "correct", it's basically a philosophical question, and one can certainly attempt to build mathematical systems based on either premise. However because I'm skeptical of "completed infinities", I'm sticking with the open-ended philosophy until completed infinities can be demonstrated to be conceptually sound (The God of philosophers can be thought of as a completed infinity, but again how can we know that?).

I suspect that I lose nothing by discarding completed infinities, because even if "infinity" or the "completed set of integers" doesn't exist, I see no reason why I couldn't construct an arbitrarily large finite subset of the integers. So what "numbers" have I really lost in the process. I could never name all the numbers to begin with, so the question as to whether they all exist as a completed whole seems purely speculative. I admit that it's splitting philosophical hairs trying to make a distinction between completed infinities and potential infinities, but I just find it difficult to imagine the "whole of infinity". The concept itself seems self-contradictory. That's my working philosophy for the site, if you couldn't tell from my jibes at infinity on my home page Sbiis Saibian (talk) 15:45, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

I think the better way to conceptualize infinity as a line, or 1-D world. 2 infinities is 2 lines, infinity^2 is a square (2-D world), infinity^3 is a cube (3-D world), etc. It makes more sense than suppose something like infinity^2+infinity+6 as a quantity instead of dimensions. Ikosarakt1 (talk) 12:00, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

That's pretty much what array spaces are : ) Sbiis Saibian (talk) 20:15, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Is 1E+(1E+64) bigger than Thrugold? Jiawheinalt (talk) 09:09, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Umm ... 1E+(1E+64) is really really small. It's only E64#2 < E100#2 = googolplex << E100#100 = grangol << E100#100#100 = E100##3 = greagol <<< E100##100 = gugold <<< E100###100 = throogol << E100###100##100 = ''thrugold. 1E+(1E+64) barely taps into the power of two-argument Hyper-E Notation! Sbiis Saibian (talk) 15:24, February 28, 2013 (UTC)''

Twin primes
In The Small Primes, you say "Primes seperated by 2 are known as twin primes, and it was proven that there are an infinite number of them." Where was it proven? Wikipedia, MathWorld, and the Prime Glossary all tell me it's an unsolved problem, but widely believed to be true. FB100Z &bull; talk &bull; contribs 21:12, March 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's a very famous conjecture known as the Twin Prime Conjecture. It is considered to be very difficult, perhaps out of reach of current understanding. If it were solved it would be huge news, you would definitely hear about it. Deedlit11 (talk) 04:20, March 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * At the time I was aware that the goldbach conjecture was unproven, but I thought that the twin prime conjecture was already proven. On the surface it seems like an innocent enough assertion, until you spend a few moments trying to come up with a proof for the "obvious".


 * Most of the material in Section I is from the sites early days and is very "out of date" now. I've been giving some thought to how Section I should be retooled. It also is rather "thin" in content (for example the orginal version of Section I only talked about 3 numeration systems: egyptian hieroglyphic numerals, roman numerals, and modern decimals). In the interm I'll correct the error, but honestly that whole article could do with a rewrite. I think an article on large primes somewhere on my site would be interesting and certainly relevant. Maybe I'll make that my next project. Right now however I'm working on a new article for Section III.


 * Sbiis Saibian (talk) 15:54, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Make
Make a all 4.1 pages NOW! Aarex (talk)
 * He's probably busy in real life. Let's just wait. --I want more clouds! 23:48, April 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Give the guy a break, his site's pretty cool anyway and we're not paying him for it. Go study metamathematics and try to beat Rayo(n) or something :P FB100Z &bull; talk &bull; contribs 04:42, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

Mega in the megagon
So, (anyone who got read this,) do you think that Megagon(mega-2) or mega in the megagon is bigger than godgahlah? $Jiawhein$\(a\)\(l\)\(t\) 12:31, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

Any number can be expressible (or upper-bounded) in Steinhaus-Moser notation can't get even close to godgahlah. Recall a[b]c as a in c b-gons. Godgahlah is larger than expressions like 2[2[2[2[2...[2[5]]...]]] (with 2[2[2[2[2...[2[5]]...]]] (with 2[2[2[5]]] []'s) []'s). The last number is actually around {3,4,2,2} in BEAF, while godgahlah is around {100,101,99,99,...,99,99,99} (98 99's) Ikosarakt1 (talk ^ contribs) 12:38, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * no or yes? M(mega,mega-2) $Jiawhein$\(a\)\(l\)\(t\) 13:13, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

In other words, no. Explanation read above. Ikosarakt1 (talk ^ contribs) 13:20, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

Now, i mean M(mega,megagon). $Jiawhein$\(a\)\(l\)\(t\) 12:58, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

Mega in megagon+2-gon? Silliness, number of angles should be a number, not a polygon itself. Ikosarakt1 (talk ^ contribs) 14:33, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

Also, mega in a megagon is still less than 2 in a mega+1-gon, lol. WikiRigbyDude (talk) 22:01, April 26, 2014 (UTC)

Template:wedges
Vote now! $Jiawhein$\(a\)\(l\)\(t\) 12:12, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

Minor mistake spotted
in https://sites.google.com/site/largenumbers/home/3-2/Hyper-E you forgot to put spacebar.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-jWiGIUFZYz8/UY4P-w-0BuI/AAAAAAAADsc/FwwqT6SSFzE/w944-h456-no/Mistake+-+Copy.png

$Jiawhein$\(a\)\(l\)\(t\) 10:02, May 11, 2013 (UTC)

Active
You are an inactive user. Jiawhien (talk) 09:33, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry
I'm so terribly sorry for putting your picture in the article without premission. Wythagoras (talk) 11:17, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

What picture? What article Sbiis Saibian (talk) 23:55, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Your user picture in the article about you. But it is deleted now. Wythagoras (talk) 09:08, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Extended Cascading E Notation
E100#^^##100 = E100(#^^#)^^#100 = E100(#^^#)^(#^^#)...(#^^#)^(#^^#)100 (100 #^^#'s)

E100#^^(@ #)100 = E100(#^^@)^^#100 = E100(#^^@)^(#^^@)...(#^^@)^(#^^@)100 (100 #^^@'s)

E100#^(@ #)100 = E100(#^@)^#100 = E100(#^@)*(#^@)...(#^@)*(#^@)100 (100 #^@'s)

E100#^^#^#100 = E100#^^##...##100 (100 #'s)

E100#^^#^^#100 = E100#^^#^#...#^#100 (100 #'s)

E100#^^^#100 = E100#^^#...#^^#100 (100 #'s)

E100#^^...^^(@#)100 = E100(#^^...^^@)^^...^^#100 = E100(#^^...^^@)^^...^(#^^...^^@)...(#^^...^^@)^^...^(#^^...^^@)100 (100 #^^...^^@'s) AarexTiao 23:04, December 26, 2013 (UTC)

Blasphemorgulus growth rate
blasphemorgulus = E100{#,#,1,2}100 = E100{#,100,1,2}100 = E100#{#...#{#}#...#}#100 (100 nested) = E100#{#...#^^...^^#...#}#100 (100 ^'s) = E100#{#...#^^...^#...#^^...^#...#}#100 (100 #'s) = E100#{#...#^^...^#...#^^...#...#^^...#...#}#100 (100 #'s) = ...

Growth rate is \(f_{\varphi(1,0,0,0)}(100)\). AarexTiao 01:45, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Misspelling
On Forging Extended Cascading-E Numbers Part 2, I found the mistake:



AarexTiao 14:54, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

e-book
I'd like to convert your site into the LaTeX format to create a PDF e-book and possibly an offsite mirror. May I have your permission to do this? you're.so.pretty! 22:17, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

I'm willing to discuss the possibility. Send me an email, and we can talk about it. Sbiis Saibian (talk) 22:01, March 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Email sent. you're.so.pretty! 23:05, March 31, 2014 (UTC)

Private Info
What is your real name? King2218 (talk) 13:57, March 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why the name given by parents must be considered as "real"? I think that anyone is free to choose the name for self. Ikosarakt1 (talk ^ contribs) 14:13, March 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh come on, if he's publishing work exclusively under an alias, then would he want to publicly answer that question? Use your head, bro! you're.so.pretty! 20:24, March 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, it appears that I put the word 'private' in the heading. :P King2218 (talk) 04:36, April 1, 2014 (UTC)

How to pronounce transmorgrifihgh?
I can't figure out for my life how. WikiRigbyDude (talk) 01:01, April 26, 2014 (UTC)

pretty much the way it's spelled, except that "ih" is meant to stand for the "long i" sound (meaning you say the name of the letter I, like the "i" in icecream ), and "gh" is the strong "g" sound (as the "g" in fig). So it sounds like... trans-morgrif-I-g

My names are pretty phonetic, it's just I have a few of my own made up letter combinations. Hope that clears that up. Sbiis Saibian (talk) 01:16, April 26, 2014 (UTC)

in it's /trænzmɔɹɡrə'fiːg/ or something like that you're.so.pretty! 02:01, April 26, 2014 (UTC)

Try typing "transmorgrifyg" in google translate and have it read it back to you. That's a pretty close phonetic approximation. Sbiis Saibian (talk) 16:21, April 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * This all calls to attention a minor problem with googology: pronunciation. It should be standard practice in googology circles to either make the pronunciation obvious or provided in addition to the name itself you're.so.pretty! 18:11, April 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * Take some of Aarex's numbers for example. For instance, how do you pronounce numbers like gegol and grahal? WikiRigbyDude (talk) 19:01, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * For the latter, I am almost certain that the first a is long, and the second is short. -SJ224 10:17, October 27, 2014 (UTC)

Transmorgrifihghs
transmorgrifihgh = E100*(*(*(*(*( ... *(*(*(*(*(#))))) ... )))))100 = E100 #*(0,1)^# 100


 * (1,1) = *(0,1)*


 * (0,2) = *(*(*(...,1),1),1)


 * (0,0,1) = *(0,*(0,*(0,...)))

The new number is E100*(0,0...0,0,1)100/w 100 0's. What is it called? AarexTiaokhiao 23:59, May 5, 2014 (UTC)

The exact same thing could have been done simply with the &-ordinal-function, and with no loss in strength. In fact we can use a Veblen Hierarchy to extend any unary-ordinal-function, just like we can use FGH to extend any unary-numeric-function.

The reason I opted NOT to extend the ampersand function in this way was simply because I had already created an ordinal notation capable of extending any unary-ordinal-funciton, rho(a), to at least rho(0,0,0,1). More importantly, my notation has a certain technical advantage over the more standard Veblen approach. Notice that a Veblen Hierarchy requires the avoidance of fixed-points via an all too necessary +1. Why is e(e(0,1)) no larger than e(0,1), yet e(e(0,1)+1) is? Yet (#^^##)^^# is larger than #^^##. +1's are not needed with my notation! ExE provides an interesting alternative to Veblen Hierarchies and fixed-point theory. (I should note that fixed-points do exist in ExE as well, but they are not part of the main-sequence. For example #^^#^^^# is of the same order-type as #^^^#)

Note however that I was forced to resort to +1's when I went off-rails, so to speak, with my & and * extension of #xE^. The star function requires fixed-point avoidance. This is why a*^# = &(&(...&(&(a+1))...)). The star operator is an ad hoc extension which has little to do with the structure of #xE^. Therefore it will almost certainly become obsolete in the near future.

More importantly, my work is about better understanding array-spaces. Simply re-iterating Veblen's work is not going to improve our understanding of array-spaces.

And what do you mean "What is it called?". Numbers are nameless. They don't have any name until we give them one. If your asking me to give it a name, that's different. However the way you phrase the question, makes it sound like it already has a name that just needs to be figured out. However, please understand that naming conventions have an order-type. They can't compactly name numbers beyond that order-type. We can have "grand transmorgrifihgh", or "transmorgrifact", or terrible transmorgrifihgh, or horrible transmorgrifihgh, and so on, but it doesn't provide for extensions much beyond that. Thus the only "name" for such a number would be something like "terrible terrible terrible ... terrible transmorgrifihgh" where the number of terribles would be googologically large and indistinguishable from the number it's naming.

If what you want is for me to just invent a new name, well, what should it be called? There is no clear indication from the existing names what it should be called. Personally I prefer to only decide on names for numbers after I have formalized a new system. It's important that this new system is also inline with the structure of the subsystem it extends such that the subsystem simply represents special cases of a more general case. This is not the case with my ##xE^ notations (including array notation on Hyperions, & and * notations. Basically anything currently beyond #xE^). #xE^ is not simply a special case of the & and * operators. It has nothing to do with them.

As far as names go there is no clear continuation. Blasphemorgulus is based on the word "blasphemy", and transmorgrifihgh is based on the word "transmogrify". "blaspehmy", "transmogrify" ... what's next? Any name I would decide on the spot would probably prove inadequate later down the road, and I would probably just rename it anyway. In any case, I've already provided plenty of place-holder names for stuff beyond transmorgrifihgh. All the numbers I coined using array-notation with hyperions will probably become future googologism's in ExE. Currently they have no formal definition, so they sort of don't count. But we can guess that some of these proto-googolism's will eventually become formal googolism's that are roughly equivalent or exceed the number you are describing. The real important thing here however is how do we apply array notation to hyperions? Sbiis Saibian (talk) 16:01, May 6, 2014 (UTC)

"Why is e(e(0,1)) no larger than e(0,1), yet e(e(0,1)+1) is? Yet (#^^##)^^# is larger than #^^##." This is a consequence of the theory of normal functions. In Ordinal-land, a normal function is any total, strictly increasing unary function that is continuous (meaning that \(\lim_{\alpha \rightarrow \beta} f(\alpha) = f(\beta)\) for \(\beta \in \text{Lim}\) &mdash; the function "preserves" limit points). The fixed point lemma tells us that every normal function has at least one fixed point. (I have more to say, but I'm in a hurry) you're.so.pretty! 16:51, May 6, 2014 (UTC)

An new item of ExE series
E100 # /2^ # 100 = Babbulbufihgh

E100 # /2^ # Babbulbufihgh = Grand Babbulbufihgh

E100 # /2/2^ # 100 = E100/2/(x/2/(x/(.../2/(x/2/(x^ # ))...)))100/w 100 nested

E100 # /3^ # 100 = E100/2(x/2(x/(.../2(x/2(x^ # ))...)))100/w 100 nested

AarexTiaokhiao 19:19, May 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * I still think Bulbasaur was part of a motivation for these names. LittlePeng9 (talk) 20:32, May 23, 2014 (UTC)

wat dude wat King2218 (talk) 09:12, May 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * Extensible-E was designed to be writable in ASCII without characters or formatting. WikiRigbyDude (talk) 15:20, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

A random question
How do you think Michael Joseph Halm (since it seems plausible that Andre Joyce doesn't exist) would react to your article about Joyce's googology? That article is probably the best one on your entire website, lel. WikiRigbyDude (talk) 15:19, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

My guess is he would be surprised. It seems to be a genuine case of extreme underestimation of Bowers' array notation. Perhaps he might even doubt the soundness of the result. I didn't rigorously prove it after all. I assumed that my readers had a cursory understanding of Bowers' 4-entry arrays. But I can't just assume that in Michael Halm's case (If he did have such an understanding he wouldn't have so badly underestimated it in the first place). So for someone who doesn't know anything about how Bowers' array notation works it might seem that I'm just asserting that it's that much more powerful. This issue will be fully addressed only once I begin discussing Bowers' array notation directly. Sbiis Saibian (talk) 20:28, June 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Is there any known way to contact Halm? you're.so.pretty! 20:50, June 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * http://michaelhalm.tripod.com/ *might* have something. Also, it has a picture of what Halm looks like - he's 67 years old O_o
 * Why the O_o? Folks of all ages and nationalities can be googologists. you're.so.pretty! 21:47, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Seeing as Andre Joyce's website underwent major changes (such as googolplux, pluc, and plum being now only in the pentation range)......
.....what'll you do about your glorious Andre Joyce article? WikiRigbyDude (talk) 23:57, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

I have to say
You've done a great job at not leaking personal info on the Internet. WikiRigbyDude (talk) 17:22, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

Numbering errors
Hey, you are doing a great job on revising your Hyper-E (and now Cascading-E, Extended Cascading-E, etc.) articles! I'm here to let you know there are some errors regarding the numberings of googolisms in the Hyper-E article. (Cascading-E seems okay.) The errors are:


 * The numbers 177 and 178 are skipped, between (176) googolduplexiquintidex and (179) googolsextidex.
 * The following googolisms' numbers are duplicates:
 * (963) threahexol to (963) throogondhexol
 * (975) thruhexoltesla to (975) thruhexoldeka
 * (1033) thrangentol to (1033) throogondentol

Keep up the good work! — ☁ I want more clouds! ⛅ 14:21, October 1, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the error report. I'm going to be returning to the Hyper-E article to make corrections. Sbiis Saibian (talk) 03:22, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

It took a while, but the corrections are now made and there are now almost twice as many numbers below a godgahlah Sbiis Saibian (talk) 01:01, November 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * There's another problem: binary-guppyding and octal-guppyding are listed twice (for instance, binary-guppyding on #197 and #203). -- ☁ I want more clouds! ⛅ 12:57, November 5, 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. I also ended up correcting two other enumeration errors along the way Sbiis Saibian (talk) 15:56, November 6, 2014 (UTC)

Numbering error report: 10432 and 10433 are missing. -- ☁ I want more clouds! ⛅ 06:06, January 8, 2015 (UTC)

The numbering in question has been corrected Sbiis.ExE (talk) 23:48, January 8, 2015 (UTC)

A mistake on your FGH article
Go to https://sites.google.com/site/largenumbers/home/4-3

Then, scroll to the bottom.

There is a series of symbols:

Γαβγδεζηθικλ^μνξοπρςστυφχψω∈∉≠⊂→ƒ

You have made a mistake.

-- A Large Number Googologist -- 03:10, October 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * What's more, the article abruptly ends right before the string of symbols you mentioned.
 * This might imply that Sbiis Saibian (or whoever was writing that article) become more and more insane when thinking about the scary idea described in the article, and his brain finally gave out when he tried to contemplate numbers would require (3)[ω2] nestings, or (3)[ωω] or (3)[ε(0,0)]. Clearly something is going on here. (yes, this is a stupid speculation) -- ☁ I want more clouds! ⛅ 10:39, October 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'm not sure how to intepret that. The transliteration would be Gavgdezīthiklmnxoprsstyfchpso, which doesn't appear to mean anything in particulat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SuperJedi224 (talk • contribs)

Ok, got it 190.96.235.111 13:59, October 11, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, forget to log in -- A Large Number Googologist -- 14:00, October 11, 2014 (UTC)

I suppose Sbiis just copy-pastes these symbols whenever he needs them. LittlePeng9 (talk) 14:03, October 11, 2014 (UTC)

LittlePeng9 figured it out. As for why the article abruptly ends? The reason is that there appears to be a built in limit to how large an article can be. I've hit it a few times. This is the reason, for example, that the xE^ numbers are split up into two articles, and why I recently split up the Hyper-E article into E# numbers and xE# numbers. Basically, once the article length exceeds whatever the limit is suppose to be, it will simply say "file too large to save" and it will refuse to save. The only way around this appears to be to shorten the article. I think I have a full version of that article saved somewhere. At some point I'm going to have to figure out how to fix the ending Sbiis Saibian (talk) 19:11, October 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * yeah I get that too with my site :/ Cookiefonster (talk) 03:52, October 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * y'all mothafuckas need LaTeX it's vel time 04:20, October 13, 2014 (UTC)

For posterity: the correct URL for the subject of this thread is https://sites.google.com/site/largenumbers/home/4-2/fgh_gamma0 -- ☁ I want more clouds! ⛅ 11:37, October 12, 2014 (UTC)

Abuse of "order type"
You've used the term "order type" in many places on your site. Unfortunately, the usage doesn't seem to be correct it's vel time 14:55, October 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Hm, I do the same (but only because Sbiis does it). However, I don't really find that a problem since the term "order type" definitely relates to ordinals, and therefore I don't see a problem with using it to refer to function growth rates. Then again, that's just me, and you'll likely disagree. Cookiefonster (talk) 15:13, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * "order type" indeed relates to ordianls, namely because ordinals are defined as order types of special kinds of total orders. The problem we have with this abuse is that it's completely intuitive and I don't think anyone even successfully attempted to define it. LittlePeng9 (talk) 15:16, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Informality sucks, but my main beef is that he's taking a term with an established meaning in a closely related field (set theory) and using it for something else. (It appears in correct usage in our articles on fusible numbers and inaccessible cardinals — so yes, it is actually already used in googology.) it's vel time 15:28, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

You haven't addressed this problem, but I totally understand given that you're so busy. Would you be offended if we started assembling an unofficial errata for your book on this wiki? Given the high visibility of your site, I think it's a good idea to have a public record of what errors remain uncorrected. it's vel time 19:52, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

You may create such a record. There is always a ton of minor spelling and grammar issues, and the occasional computational hiccup. Having such a record would be helpful. However let me add this caveat: don't try to make me into some sort of scapegoat for whatever you feel is "wrong" about the community in general. As long as the errata list is kept professional and impersonal, I don't mind. As for the usage of "order-type", I'm still considering the matter Sbiis Saibian (talk) 22:21, October 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks for being chill about this. I'll be sure to respect your wishes on this matter. it's vel time 00:51, October 21, 2014 (UTC)

Hey
You seem to love 2001: A Space Odyssey. When did you first watch the film? -- ☁ I want more clouds! ⛅ 00:54, December 11, 2014 (UTC)

I use "2001: A Space Odyssey" as a theme for my site because it nicely parallels the experience of learning googology. Just as David Bowman finds himself confronted with the "infinite" and see's things he does not fully understand, so too we deal with incomprehensible "dragons" in googology that we can not fully understand. Anyone who comes in contact with the Monolith is forever changed by it, and likewise I believe, whoever earnestly seeks to understand googology will likewise be forever changed by it.

Interestingly the theme is relatively new and was only introduced roughly 3 years ago in November of 2011. So for the first half of my websites life, believe it or not, there was no references to 2001.

Of coarse, I also use it frequently because I am a fan of the movie. The first thing I ever got to see of the movie was in fact the "stargate" sequence, which is what initially got me interested in the film. Sometime probably in grade school, I had found one of my parents old VHS's. It had a mishmash of all sorts of different things recorded on it ( back in the day VHS's could be set to 6 hr mode, so tapes could contain several movies and tv shows) At the very end of this tape was the mysterious stargate sequence. The rest of the movie had been recorded over for some reason. So the scene was even more bewildering and mysterious to me because it was completely out of context. It was only years later growing up that I got to see bits and pieces of the rest of the film. I do not remember the first time I saw the movie from beginning to end, but it's fair to say I was a fan even before I did. It's a very unique film in it's austerity it's solitude and it's eerie ineffability...

Sbiis Saibian (talk) 03:40, December 11, 2014 (UTC)

of coarse
why do you always say "of coarse" instead of "of course"? Cookiefonster (talk) 01:24, January 9, 2015 (UTC)

Anniversary of the xec_numbers leak
One year ago, you have accidentally released the article where you forge numerous googolisms with the newly-found power of Extended Cascading-E. This event lead to an incident on 18 January 2014 involving a user creating an analysis and your wife creating a Wikia account. His user page was taken down, and the article was officially released at the end of the month.

As the one-year anniversary of the incident approaches, I've thinking of publicizing the unfinished article I've copied to my computer when it's leaked. Graphical information was lost, but the text was saved. I've thinking of releasing the article on either this wiki, or on Pastebin.

So the question: Do you mind if I release the unfinished version of your xec_numbers article to the public on 18 January 2015? -- ☁ I want more clouds! ⛅ 04:52, January 15, 2015 (UTC)

Feel free. The original issue with the article was simply the concern of Aarex possibly taking credit for months worth of my own work, by pre-empting my own publication of it! Since xE^ has now been released to the community for almost a year there is no concern with the article anymore. The leak itself was the result of some carelessness on my part by not securing all the relevant details. I have tightened up security this time around, and I plan to create my own special announcement just prior to a scheduled release. Sbiis.ExE (talk) 02:53, January 17, 2015 (UTC)


 * The paste is up. http://pastebin.com/DhSXVbw1 -- ☁ I want more clouds! ⛅ 15:07, January 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * wow that's actually pretty cool. there are some amusing names that were changed in the  final release like "quibble-tethrasquare". Cookiefonster (talk) 15:29, January 19, 2015 (UTC)

irc
you haven't been on the irc lately, why is that? Cookiefonster (talk) 01:32, February 2, 2015 (UTC)

Life has been kind of hectic lately, lots of things to think about and take care of. In addition I am implementing a more rigorous standard of maintaining a steady work flow for my site for 2015. My goal is to put more hours into 2015 than the prior 2 years. As such I haven't had much time to spare lately. But that may change as I get settled into my new role for the spring 2015 semester. Sbiis.ExE (talk) 03:59, February 3, 2015 (UTC)


 * ok that's cool Cookiefonster (talk) 13:07, February 3, 2015 (UTC)

site update
you should put an update on your site saying that the huge xE^ numbers list is now complete. Cookiefonster (talk) 00:37, February 22, 2015 (UTC)